Embarrassment: Why do kids get embarrassed and what to do about it

Jamie: let's go to the grocery store.

Dad: k gimme like 15 minutes to finish this show I'm watching. go get ready.

Jamie: k, I'll go see what of my favorite stuff we're out of.

[15 minutes passes and Jamie comes back]

Dad: ok let's go.

Jamie: Oh wait I need to change my socks.

Dad: uh.. what's wrong with your socks now?

Jamie: they're mismatched.

Dad: so?

Jamie: well, I don't want to go out with mismatched socks.

Dad: well, do what you want, but i don't see the problem.

Jamie: having mismatched socks is stupid.

Dad: um, you're wearing them now, are you stupid?

Jamie: no, i mean doing it in public is stupid.

Dad: you're still not explaining why you think it's stupid in public while not stupid at home.

Jamie: it's embarrassing in public.

Dad: do you mean that you don't want people to know that you're ok with wearing mismatched socks?

Dad: i mean, you're wearing them now so you must be ok with wearing them in general.

Jamie: ya I don't want them to know.

Dad: why do you care about what they know or don't know?

Jamie: I don't want them to laugh at me.

Dad: well first of all, you don't know why he's laughing. i see 2 ways it could go: either he's stupid and laughing because he thinks you're doing something stupid, or he's smart and laughing because he's happy that you did something smart.

Jamie: uh, let's talk about the stupid one first. how do you know he's stupid?

Dad: why else would somebody laugh at you while thinking that wearing mismatched socks is stupid?

Jamie: oh. it's cause he's stupid.

Dad: a smart person would think that you're smart for not caring about wearing mismatched socks in public.

Jamie: oh!

Dad: a smart person would realize that maybe you like wearing mismatched socks, or that maybe you care about putting socks on quickly, leaving more time for more interesting things, instead of spending time finding matching socks.

Jamie: oh ya! ok never mind the socks, let's just go.

[they get in the car and start driving.]

Jamie: by the way, what do you do if somebody does laugh at you?

Dad: well first, how do you know if he's laughing at you or with you?

Jamie: well, let's say he's pointing and telling other people to look too.

Dad: well, inside you can say to yourself 'oh that must be one of the stupid people who get embarrassed and who hide their real opinions for fear of losing approval from other people' and then you can giggle inside.

Jamie: giggle inside?

Dad: you can giggle outside too. or you can say the thing outside too, but for what? what do you gain by talking to this stupid person? do you think he's going to give you a chance to argue with him?

Jamie: well, maybe.

Dad: consider that this kind of person doesn't really think for himself. he blindly borrows the opinions of other people. that's why he's laughing at you, because he thinks it's weird for you to think for yourself, to have your own opinions, to not be following the same thing that everybody else follows.

Jamie: but people can change their minds.

Dad: yes, but only if they want to. only if they are interested to do that. do you think that somebody who laughs at you for wearing mismatched socks is going to be interested to argue with you about it?

Jamie: probably not.

Dad: you can try. there's no harm in trying.

Jamie: ok i will.

Dad: just be sure you know why you're trying.

Jamie: what do you mean?

Dad: well, do you want to argue with him for your benefit or for his benefit?

Jamie: you mean I shouldn't do it if it's for his benefit?

Dad: that's not what i mean. i'm saying that you should know what you benefit. and him benefiting should be only a secondary concern of yours.

Jamie: what would i benefit?

Dad: well, maybe you think that they might have a good reason for thinking what they think, and then you can ask them about that to learn about it — you might find out that your wrong and they are right, which is common. actually, in general, when you're talking to someone, there's always something you can learn from him.

Dad: also, maybe you want to learn how other people think, and one way to do that is to talk to other people.

Jamie: ok so if i do talk to somebody about why he's laughing at me for wearing mismatched socks, then i should only do it if i benefit something, and i should know what i'm benefiting, like maybe i want to learn more about why he's laughing.

Dad: right.

Jamie: but wait, didn't you already explain why he's laughing?

Dad: do you think I explained everything i know about that?

Jamie: i guess no.

Dad: and even if I did explain to you everything i know about that, do you think you learned everything I explained?

Jamie: i guess no because i could have misunderstood stuff.

Dad: and even if you did learn everything I explained about it, do you think that there's not more to learn about it? do you think i know everything about it?

Jamie: lol, no.

Dad: for one thing, you haven't learned why he cares about other people's approval.

Jamie: why does he care?

Dad: well we're here, let's continue this later.

Jamie: k, and I'll remind you later because I know you forget a lot.

Dad: well, one reason that I would forget this specific thing is that you are the one interested in learning about your specific questions, not me — I mean, I don't even know what your questions are so it's way harder for me to remember this vague thing than compared to you remembering your specific questions. 

Dad: so if you want to learn the answers to your questions, you should take initiative to learn about them, by say, asking me questions, and studying people by critically thinking about tv shows and stuff like that.

Dad: also you can read essays and books about it, and ask other people questions like Elliot and the other philosophers at the Fallible Ideas Discussion Group.

[on the ride home]

Jamie: so wait a minute, why would I want to learn how other people think?

Dad: well, it helps with knowing how to interact with them. like, if you want to play chess in a tournament, it's good to know some things about what they think because that helps you figure out why they do certain things.

Jamie: i don't know what you mean. can you give an example?

Dad: well, one time in a chess tournament somebody tried to intimidate me so that i play worse so that he wins. 

Jamie: what did you do?

Dad: well it was my turn to start the game but I didn't realize it, and he had his arms stretched out at opposite ends with his palms turned up. and he wasn't saying anything. and he had a mean look on his face.

Jamie: so what did you do?

Dad: well, i was confused, then i realized it's my turn and i played.

Jamie: did it work? did you play worse because he did that?

Dad: I'm not sure. maybe i did. i don't recall. i bet i did play worse. i remember really being confused by what he did. so i must have been thinking at least a little bit, which means that it was taking away focus from the game.

Jamie: hmm. so what did you learn?

Dad: well, i learned that sometimes a person will try to intimidate you to get you to do what he wants against your will. and in general, that means that sometimes a person will try to trick somebody to get what he wants against the the other person's will.

Jamie: oh a no-cp.

Dad: right.

Jamie: that's evil.

Dad: yes.

Jamie: so why did he do it?

Dad: well, i maybe he doesn't believe there is good and bad.

Jamie: ugh

Dad: ya ugh

———————————————

For more on parenting.

Morality: how to help children learn moral reasoning

One way to help your child learn morality is to explain your role towards him.

I want what's best for you

Parent: I want what is best for you.

Child: i know

Parent: Primarily that means I help you get what you want.

Child: But what if I do bad stuff!?

Parent: Why would you "do bad stuff"? Do you mean like you did something bad but you didn't know it's bad? If that's the case, then you're not guilty because you didn't know it was bad. But if you're talking about doing something bad and you know it's bad, then you're guilty. But don't you want to do what you think is good, and don't you try to avoid doing what you think is bad?

Child: Ya!

Parent: And that means that I will do my best to help you get what you want.

Child: But, what if I want something, and you don't like what I want?

Parent: Well, part of helping you get what you want means helping you figure out what's good to want. So for example, if you want to meet Santa, and since that's impossible, it's a bad thing to want and my job is to help you figure that yet.

Child: heh, ya. but that's easy to fix.

Parent: Ok he's a harder one. So lets say one day you wanted me to get water for you right now, and then you found out that I was in the shower. Then it's impossible for me to get water for you right now unless I get out of the shower, put a towel on, get the water for you while I'm cold, and then go back to my shower, all while you sit there watching tv and playing on your iPad. So, do you agree that in this situation you should change what you wanted to something like I'll get the water myself, or I'll have water when dad is ready after his shower?

Child: Ya.

Parent: And it goes the other way around too. I mean that if the right thing to do is for me to change my mind, then I'll do that.

Child: Ok. But what if we don't agree on who should change their mind?

Parent: Well most times we'll both be changing our minds, not just one of us. But anyway let's consider that. When we disagree about who should change their mind, then we should both change our minds to the fallback resolution which is to agree to disagree and leave each other alone without resorting to using force (or coercion).

Child: Oh ya.

Parent: So that means that I'm not restricting you from getting what you want even when I disagree with you that your want is good.

Child: So doesn't that mean that you would let me do something bad?

Parent: Well, what's the alternative? The alternative is for me to force (or coerce) you to do things against your will whenever I think I'm right and you disagree.

Child: Oh! Ya that's bad.

Parent: And the thing is that I could be wrong. So I won't force my opinion on you because that means I could be forcing something wrong on you. 

Parent: So yes, between the two options: (1) stand aside as my kid does something I think is bad, and (2) force (or coerce) my kid to not do something I think is a mistake -- option #1 is the best. Option #1 is reasonable and voluntary. Option #2 is unreasonable and involuntary -- it's acting on whim.

Child: What do you mean by whim? 

Whim 

Parent: A whim is wanting something without even trying to find out why you want it.

Child: So having a whim is bad?

Parent: No, but acting on a whim is bad.

Child: Why is it bad?

Parent: Because acting that way means preventing yourself from finding out if you were wrong.

Child: But why?

Parent: Well, if you want something, and if somebody explains to you that it's a mistake and gives you an explanation of how it's wrong, and you disagree but you don't have a reason, and let's say that in this situation you're actually wrong, then how will you find out that you're wrong?

Child: I guess you can't.

Parent: Right. It's impossible to find out you're wrong if you don't expose your reasoning to criticism. And if you don't have reasoning for why you want something, then that means you can't criticize your want (except for criticizing it for not having any reasoning). And that's bad because not being able to criticize it means not being able to find flaws in it, which means that if it is wrong, you can't possibly find out that you're wrong. So you stay wrong forever.

Child: eww!

Child: But what about if I run into the street to get a ball while a car was coming?

Parent: I would scream out to save you and if I'm close enough I'll run to grab you.

Child: But that's against my will! I was going after a ball and you stopped me from getting what I want!

Parent: You mean you don't want me to save your life if you're in danger?

Child: oh, yes I do.

Parent: So then what are you talking about?

Child: Never mind, I was wrong. What's next?

Parent: You were trying to find ways that it's bad for me to not stop you doing what you want.

Child: Oh ya. What about this one? What if somebody asked me to share something of mine, and I said no.

Sharing 

Parent: So you didn't want to share, but what was your reason?

Child: oh ya, gotta have reasons for what we want. What if I said "...because I said so?"  or "...because!"

Parent: I'd say "because... what? you didn't say why you want it."

Child: Ok how about "...because I want to.. that's why!"

Parent: Well that's wrong because it's circular. You want to because you want to?

Child: lol, oh ya that's stupid.

Parent: Got any other reasons for me?

Child: Well I didn't think that far yet. I didn't think of anything else.

Parent: Ok I'll suggest some details. Let's say your reason for not wanting to share is that you want to play with your iPad right now, and the other kid wants to play with it too. So in this scenario, you shouldn't share it.

Child: Why?

Parent: If he shares his iPad when he wants to play with it, then he can't play with it. So then he's not getting what he wants.

Child: Well this is a conflict. They can work together to resolve it.

Parent: Yes, and how do you think that might go?

Child: I don't know. Kids can be very irrational sometimes. ;p

Parent:  Ya. Adults too though so I don't see the point of singling out kids -- that's a parochial mistake.

Child: What do you mean by parochial mistake?

Parochial mistake 

Parent: Uh.. well I haven't prepared myself for that question. Gimme a moment to think of a reply.

Child: You mean you don't know?

Parent: Well, I do know, but I'm not sure how to say it in simple terms -- which, by the way, means that I don't know it very well yet.

Child: Uh, 'don't know it very well?' What's that mean!?

Parent: Well did you think I can know things perfectly? Like I can't make a mistake about it, or make any improvements to it? 

Child: Uh, I don't know what you mean, but now we're changing subjects so let's put a pin on that one and get back to what a 'parochial mistake' is. 

Parent: K. So a parochial mistake is when you incorrectly judge the scope of an idea and... 

Child: lol, another word I don't know. What does scope mean?

Parent: Well gimme a moment to explain. Be patient.

Parent: Ok I got it. Every idea has a scope. For example, the idea that all people are created equal, is an idea whose scope is all people. So if someone believes this idea, and if he thinks that black people or women should not have the same voting rights as white men, then he is wrong about the scope of his idea. He doesn't realize that his idea also applies to black people and women. This is known as a parochial mistake.

Child: Oh I get. It's like if a parent knows that movies are good for learning, that's true for all people not just adults, so it's parochial mistake for him to think that some movies are bad for kids.

Parent: Right

Child: Ok. Let's get back to something else. We were talking about sharing and I asked about a situation where a kid wants to share my iPad and I don't want that. And I said, what if they don't agree? Then that's a conflict, and they can resolve the conflict. 

Parent: And then I said how do you think that might go? Oh ya and then you said you don't know. So here's some options. The kid could change his mind about playing the iPad right now. Or you could decide that you don't want to play with your iPad now and you're willing to let him play with it. And there are lots of other possibilities too, like maybe you both decide to do something else instead, like play hide-and-seek.

Child: But what if we don't agree on something?

Parent: Well then you should keep trying to find agreement, and that might mean that you should change your minds to agreeing to disagree and leaving each other alone without resorting to force or coercion. That's the fallback resolution.

Child: But then that means that the other kid didn't get what he wanted because that means I kept my iPad and he didn't get to use it.

Parent: Yes he did get what he wanted. He changed his want to leaving each other alone, so that's what he wanted, and that's what he got.

Child: But he didn't get what he originally wanted.

Parent: So he changed his mind? What's wrong with that?

Child: Well don't people get sad about that?

Don't people get sad about not getting what they originally wanted? 

Parent: If you wanted to meet Santa, and then you found out that its impossible to meet Santa, then...

Child: Oh ya, it's stupid to not change your mind when that's the right thing to do.

Parent: Right.

Child: But that's a stupid example anyway. There are things that people get sad about that are real things.

Parent: Well, let's say that you and I want to watch a movie together right now, and let's say we don't agree on what movie to watch. At this point, it's impossible for you to watch the movie you want while I also watch the movie I want while we're both watching the same tv at the same time. So why should we be sad about this? Why not change our minds to watching separately? That is possible while we each get to see the movie we wanted to see.

Child: Ya it doesn't make sense to be sad about that. Better to change your mind.

Child: Ok what if I did things like I didn't want to learn to read? Then I would have a bad life. And wouldn't that be your fault?

What if a child doesn't want to learn to read? 

Parent: Well first of all, why wouldn't you learn the value of reading?

Child: Well, when I was young, I didn't know a lot, and I especially didn't know how valuable reading is.

Parent: Sure but we're all born that way, not knowing the value of anything at all. So how do you think we learn the value of things?

Child: um..

Parent: Well first of all, values are a type of knowledge. So a broader question is: How do we gain knowledge?

Child: Oh I know that! By thinking about it! 

Parent: Yes. And that means making guesses -- like about the value of things -- and refining and refuting our guesses with criticism.

Child: Oh that's that philosophy stuff we read on my iPad!!!

Parent: Right. It's _Why Philosophy?_, by Elliot Temple.

Child: Can we read it now?

Parent: Sure lets do it.

Child: Wait, one more thing first. What if I just wanted to do the easy thing and just do what you say? Because some kids do that and they say they are happy.

Is it bad to do what you're parents say? 

Parent: That doesn't make sense though. So the way this kid judges ideas is like I'll label ideas right or wrong based on what my parents judge is right or wrong. And this doesn't work because what happens when the parents are wrong? How will you find out if he's wrong if you don't even try to find out?

Child: Ok.

Child: Wait a minute. I could be wrong too. 

Parent: Yes. So what? Are you saying that because we could be wrong we should just throw our hands up and not even try? 

Child: No. 

Parent: Another problem is that I'm not going to be around forever. If you are dependent on me for everything then you're going to be screwed when I'm no longer here. I mean, what will you do to replace his me as the judgers of ideas? Won't you have to start judging ideas on your own?

Child: Ya

Parent: And since he hasn't had much practice judging ideas on his own, then all of a sudden when his parents die, how will he be good at judging ideas if he hasn't practiced it much?

Child: Ya that doesn't make sense at all.

Child: Ok what if somebody believed something because their friends believe it?

Parent: Well, what if they are wrong?

Child: But what if they are right!?

Parent: Well they might be right, and they might be wrong, but how will you find out which one it is if you don't question their reasons for their ideas?

Child: Wait a minute.. something doesn't make sense. I remember when you told me that caring about social approval is wrong. And I said that I agreed. And you didn't tell me why!

Parent: Actually I tried but you didn't ask enough questions. You basically stopped trying to figure out whether or not it's good to want social approval.

Child: Oh.

Parent: It's possible I'm wrong, so you shouldn't take my word for it.

Child: You mean I shouldn't have believed you?

Parent: Right. You shouldn't agree with an idea unless you agree with the idea's reasoning. So you should have asked more questions. And actually, I should have warned you that it's bad to agree with an idea without criticizing it's reasoning.

Child: So I shouldn't believe you when you tell me things?

Parent: Well I make mistakes too. I might be wrong. And think of it this way. If I tell you a wrong idea, and you believe it without questioning the reasoning of the idea, then you can't find out that it's wrong, and then that wrong idea will be in your mind for your whole life causing lots of problems in your life.

Child: What? Why would one idea affect other parts of my life?

Ideas affect each other 

Parent: Because your ideas are connected. They affect each other.

Child: Can you give an example?

Parent: Well, if you have the wrong idea that you should judge ideas by just taking your parent's word for it, then that'll affect all new ideas that you try to learn. You'll adopt all the mistaken ideas that your parents have. But if you didn't have that bad idea, then you won't adopt all the mistaken ideas that your parents have.

Child: Wow that idea affects like all my ideas then!

Parent: Right. But most ideas aren't that far reaching. Each idea has its own scope.

Child: Oh there's that scope idea again! If you mess up the scope of an idea, then that's a parochial mistake.

Parent: Right. And by the way, I learned that from _Why Philosophy?_. There's lots of goodies in there. I still read it and find new things every time. Oh and...

Child: Really!?!?!

Parent: Ya.

Child: Why are you still noticing new things? Why didn't you notice them before?

Parent: Well, each time that I read it, I'm an improved version of myself. I'm smarter. So each time that I read it, I'm smarter than the last time, and that means I'll be able to notice things that I couldn't notice on previous readings.

Child: Oh so that's why you're reading all the time. I always thought you were reading new stuff each time.

Parent: Nope. The best books should be read many many times. It's the same with movies and tv shows.

Child: Oh ya! When I watch a show the second time, I notice things I didn't notice before. And I didn't know why. Now I know it's because I'm smarter the second time.

Parent: Well that's one possible reason. There's other possible reasons too. Like maybe the reason you noticed a new thing this time is that when you read that part of the book you were really tired and missed it, and this time you're not tired and you didn't miss it.

Child: Oh ya.

Parent: And by the way I was also going to say that I improved my understanding of parochialism from discussions with Elliot and the other philosophers on the Fallible Ideas Discussion Group.

Child: Cool. I wish I could talk to Elliot.

Parent: YOU CAN! And I bet he'd love to talk to you! You just need to start emailing. And then you can email him. And he'll reply. He likes talking to smart people.

Child: COOL! ok, I want to watch Burn Notice again from the beginning. It'll be my third time now! You wanna watch with me?

Parent: Na. I'm gonna read _Why Philosophy?_ again.

Child: K bye.

———————————————

For more on parenting.

Allah the Parent

I talked with a Muslim online at an Islam advocacy website. The discussion started out with him explaining basic things, and then I got him to admit that Allah would reward evil people with heaven and punish good people with hell. And then I used an analogy of a parent and child to explain how it doesn't make sense. Then he used my analogy to explain why good people aren't actually good because they are disrespecting their parent and being ungrateful to their parent. And then I showed him how that doesn't make any sense. Enjoy!

Naomi: Muslims say that Islam helps with leading a good life. I’m interested to know more about how it helps with that.

Mohamed (an Islam advocate online): The religion of Islam is the acceptance of and obedience to the teachings of God which He revealed to His last prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Mohamed: “Islam” literally means peace through submission to God by belief in His Oneness and by obedience to Him. Thus, Islam claimed to be the same religion preached by all the earlier prophets, in whom Muslims must also believe. These prophets include Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, John the Baptist, and Jesus (peace be upon them all), among others.  

Mohamed: Islam is basically the same religion preached by all the earlier prophets, in whom Muslims must also believe. The main message of all the Prophets has always been that there is only One True God and He alone is worthy of being supplicated to and worshipped. But God's final message to man, a reconfirmation of the eternal message and a summing-up of all that has gone before was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad through Gabriel.

Naomi: Yes my Muslim friends explained that part to me. Can you tell me about how it helps lead a good life?

Mohamed: There are many benefits in Islam, and to enumerate them is impossible, but I will try to mention a few.

Mohamed: 1) One is freed from the worship of and slavery to created objects, systems, lifestyles, and becomes a true worshipper and slave of God. He worships God alone and no other deity, loving Him alone and placing his hope in Him alone.

Mohamed: 2) In accepting and practicing Islam, one knows that he is fulfilling the purpose of their creation. God created us for a purpose, and in abiding by Islam, one fulfills their purpose, the worship of God alone and none else.

Mohamed: 3) A person is provided with a light which guides them through life. The religion of Islam has answers to all situations, and one will always know the right step to take in all aspects of life, from the religious, political, social, familial, and corporate. Islam provides guidelines which one uses to base their decision. In following these guidelines, one knows which decision to make, and also knows that it is the one which earns the pleasure of God.

Mohamed: 4) One forms a personal relationship with God through prayer, supplication, fasting and the many other forms of worship in Islam. One feels this personal relationship and feels that God is with him with His knowledge at all times.

Mohamed: 5) One comes under the favor of God, thus being more eligible to Divine help than others.

Mohamed: 6) Forgiveness and Mercy of God. God promises that He will forgive the believing Muslims if they happen to sin, if of course they sincerely repent and truly feel remorse for their sin.

Mohamed: 7) The greatest benefit is that if one converts to Islam, they are promised that God will enter them into Paradise, even if they might be punished for some other greater sins which they may have committed. They will abide therein forever, having all their wishes fulfilled.

Naomi: Can you talk more about how somebody gets to heaven or hell?

Mohamed: All people who lived their lives according to God’s guidelines will enter paradise. God will reward them in abundance and they will have what they desire.

Mohamed: As for those who chose to follow their whims and desires, such will enter Hell except if God forgives them and He is the Most Merciful. The dwellers of hell will be punished for their rejection of God’s guidelines.

Naomi: My Muslim friends told me something different. That non-Muslims can go to heaven instead of hell.

Mohamed: A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The evidence (daleel) for this is the hadeeth of...

Naomi: So if they repent, and if God accepts their repentance, then they will be rewarded with heaven. And if their repentance is not accepted, or if they didn’t repent, then they get punished in hell.

Mohamed: Right.

Naomi: There’s something not clear to me. What if somebody did evil things his whole life, and then on his death bed he repents. Then he can get away with not being punished for having deliberately done evil his whole life.

Mohamed: Yes, Allah is the Most Merciful, the Most Forgiving.

Naomi: Forgiveness seems good in general, but this doesn't make sense. This is telling Muslims that they can deliberately do whatever evil sins they want to do and then not be punished for it, and instead, be rewarded with heaven.

Mohamed: Well, Allah knows our intentions. 

Naomi: Are you saying that if somebody tries to beat the system, then Allah will know this and will judge this person negatively?

Mohamed: Only Allah knows. He is the Judge.

Naomi: What if somebody did good things his whole life, and tried hard to never hurt anyone, and then on his death bed he doesn’t repent?

Mohamed: He is punished in hell.

Naomi: But he was good!

Mohamed: The good deeds were for himself.

Naomi: So you're saying that Allah would punish a good person.

Mohamed: If a person is good to other people, but his attitude towards the Creator is poor, why should he be rewarded for that?

Naomi: That's like a parent who punishes his kid for doing good things. Why should the parent punish his kid for doing good things?

Mohamed: If the kid isn’t respectful to the parent, would he still be considered good?

Naomi: What do you mean by "isn't respectful to parent"?

Mohamed: Disobeying his parent. Being ungrateful of his parent.

Naomi: That's like saying that it's parent's right for his kids to be obedient to parent. Doesn't the kid have the right to have his own opinions? Doesn't he have the right to live his life according to his own opinions?

Mohamed: Isn’t it God's right that he be recognized, that His commandments be followed? He created man with a purpose.

Naomi: That's like saying that the parent had a purpose for his child when he gave him birth. But the child didn't choose to be born. It's not the child's fault for being born. The parent caused that. So why shouldn't the child have the freedom to live his life according to his own chosen purpose?

Mohamed: Does that give the child the right to be disobedient and ungrateful? And is being disobedient and ungrateful a good deed????

Naomi: I don’t understand what you’re saying here. Why do you think the child does not have the right, the freedom, to live his life by his own opinions? Just because he was born to the particular parents he was born to?

Naomi: And why do you think that the child should be grateful? Grateful for what? The child didn’t ask to be born. When somebody is grateful for something, it’s because he asked for it or otherwise wanted it, and then somebody gave it to him. In this case, the child did not ask to be born and he didn't want to be born, so there is nothing to be grateful for.

Mohamed: The Creator has blessed you with all kinds of faculties.

Naomi: Analogously, the parent gave the child lots of faculties too. So what?

Mohamed: Does that not warrant gratefulness??

Naomi: Whether or not the child should be grateful should be about way more than just giving birth. The parent is responsible for helping the child, helping him become independent, helping him learn, helping him live a good life. If the parent fails at these things, then what is there to be grateful for? Being given birth is such a low standard for being grateful.

Naomi: And that's even a different question from whether or not the parent should expect his child to be grateful. It shouldn't be expected. It should be earned. And the child should be the sole judge (of whether or not his parent did a good job enough to deserve gratefulness).

Mohamed: [blank out]

Naomi: Let me ask it like this: Is it a good deed for the parent to expect obedience from his child?

Mohamed: There is nothing wrong with having expectations.

Naomi: The parent can have expectations for himself. Why should he have expectations for his child? Why shouldn't the child have the right, the freedom, to choose expectations for his own life?

Mohamed: Are you saying the child should be disrespectful because he feels he owes nothing to his parents?

Naomi: Owes? Why would the child owe the parent anything? It's the parent that owes the child. It's the parent who chose for the child to be born -- the child did not choose to have his particular parents.

Naomi: Who chose for the child to be brought into the world dependent on his parent? The parent chose that, not the child. So the parent owes his child, not the other way around.

Naomi: And I don't even know what you mean by "disrespectful" besides not obeying somebody who expects obedience. And this still leaves the question: Why is it a good deed for the parent to expect obedience from his child

Mohamed: Is that an evil deed? Is it evil to expect your child to listen to you?

Naomi: I don't get the point of your question. Is it evil for a child to have the freedom to have his own opinions, and the freedom to live his life by his own opinions instead of the opinions of his parents?

Naomi: I mean, I know that parents want for their children to do good, so they try to get their children to adopt good values ("expectations"), but shouldn't the parent explain his good values so that the child might adopt them?

Mohamed: That's why there is revelation. To help guide mankind. To do what is right.

Naomi: Ok but don't you think the parent should explain those values so that the child might adopt them?

Naomi: I mean, how can the child adopt some values without knowing why those values are good? Doesn't the parent need to explain why those values are beneficial to his child so that he might be persuaded of the benefit of those values?

Mohamed: Again the role of a holy book and revelation fits that.

Naomi: Are you're saying that the holy book explains why the values it has are good/beneficial?

Mohamed: It explains our purpose in life. How we should live our life. Why we came to this earth. And where are we going. What is good and what is bad in the eyes of God.

Naomi: I note that you didn't include whether or not the holy book explains why those so-called good things are beneficial and why those so-called bad things are harmful. Does it explain this part too?

Mohamed: [blank out]


Naomi: In other words, in the parent analogy, you're saying that the parent explains what is good and what is bad, but you didn't clarify whether or not the parent explains to his child why the so-called good things are beneficial and why the so-called bad things are harmful.

Mohamed: The question was on the goodness of a person who is disrespectful or disobedient. That just because you are good to others, that doesn't mean you're being good to your parent.

Naomi: And my clarifying question about that, which you haven't answered, is: Why should the parent expect obedience? Why is that good? Why don't you consider it evil for a parent to ignore his child's freedom to form his own opinions independent of his parent's opinions? Why don't you consider it evil for a parent to ignore his child's freedom to live his life by his own opinions independent of his parent's opinions?

Mohamed: The analogy fails here. God created humans for a purpose.

Naomi: And if God wanted man to be persuaded that the things he calls good and evil are beneficial and harmful (respectively), then he should have explained these things in his holy book so that we might be persuaded.

Mohamed: But God created man to worship him, not for them to question his laws.

Naomi: But God is supposed to be perfect/infallible/omniscient, and as I understand it, the Quran is claimed to be perfect/infallible/omniscient. And one of the things that that implies is that it answers all possible questions that any person could ask. So when I ask the question why is this so-called good action beneficial? and if I don't find the explanation in the Quran, then this is evidence that refutes the claim that the Quran is perfect.

Mohamed: [blank out]

Naomi: So let's recap. I told you that Allah would punish a good person who didn't believe in him, and I gave you the parent analogy to explain how that doesn't make sense. You replied saying that a good child that disobeys his parent is not actually good. 

Naomi: Then I showed you how it's wrong for a parent to expect obedience, and instead he should explain the merits and demerits of certain actions as a means of helping his child figure out what's good and what's evil, while not infringing on his child's freedom to form his own opinions and live his life according to his own opinions.

Naomi: Then you said that the parent analogy fails because you realized that the Quran does not explain why the things it claims are good are beneficial, nor does it explain why the things it claims are evil are harmful.

Naomi: Then I explained to you that not explaining these things implies fallibility/imperfection/non-omniscience.

Mohamed: [blank out]

Naomi: No answer?

Naomi: If the Quran is not perfect, while claiming to be perfect, then why should anyone believe any of its claims? Why should I believe that Allah is real?

Naomi: How do you know that Mohamed didn't invent Allah and the Quran?

Naomi: If you have no answer, then I have no reason to believe your claims. I'm out.

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Jealousy: Why do kids get jealous and what to do about it?

Jon and Chris are at home playing. A friend of the family comes over, talks with dad a little bit, and then leaves. Jon notices a bag that wasn't there before dad's friend came over. He goes over there to see what's inside. Jon grabs 2 suckers out of the bag.


Jon: Awesome! Suckers!

[Jon unwraps a sucker and starts enjoying it.]

Chris: Really? I want some!

Chris: Ah man. There's only 1 sucker left.

Chris: Jon, how about you throw away one of your suckers?

Dad: What? Why should Jon do that?

Chris: Because then it'll be fair, so I'll feel better.

Dad: um, how does Jon losing a sucker make you feel better?

Chris: I just said, "then it'll be fair."

Dad: I don't know what you mean. How does Jon losing a sucker affect your life?

Chris: Because then it'll be fair.

Dad: You're not explaining what you mean. Why do you care that you have as much as Jon does?

Chris: Well, I'd feel bad if I didn't.

Dad: You're still not explaining what you mean. You're basically saying "I feel it because I feel it." That's circular.

Chris: Why did your friend only bring 3 suckers?

Dad: I don't know what that has to do with why you would feel better if Jon lost a sucker.

Dad: My friend didn't say anything about it. Maybe he accidentally left it here. Maybe he meant to bring it to his house to give to his kids, and maybe it fell out of his pocket while he was here.

Chris: But this isn't fair!

Dad: Are you trying to say that somebody wronged you?

Chris: Yes.

Dad: Who wronged you, and what did they do wrong, and what do you think they should have done instead and why?

[no reply]

Dad: Do you realize that we could just go to the store and buy a whole bag of suckers for like $2? I mean, anytime we go to the store you always get whatever candy you want, and anytime we don't have the candy you want, you've asked me to take you to the store and we go. So I don't see the problem.

Chris: Oh ya. 

Chris: Ok I want to go to the store right now.

Dad: k gimme 10 minutes to finish this email and we'll go.

Chris: Deal!

[Jon's finishes his first sucker and get's out his 2nd sucker.]

Jon: I don't want this anymore. Chris you want it?

Chris: Ya gimme.

[Chris finishes his first sucker.]

Chris: Actually I don't want it anymore. These don't even taste that good.

Jon: I know!

Dad: Do you still want to go to the store?

Jon: ya I wanna get some hershey bars.

Chris: I don't know what I want.

Dad: you can decide later. get ready, I'm almost done with this email.

Dad: oh and go check to see what things you're out of. I think we ran out of your favorite chips.

[Jon and Chris run off to get ready.]

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